Susan Cain Introverts in 2018

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Susan Cain, a Harvard law school graduate and former attorney and negotiator, used to regard her quiet and reserved nature as a disadvantage, something to be overcome. But then she began researching introversion as a personality trait, and discovered that what many see as a weakness is actually a strength — one that most Americans, with their love of risk-taking and intense socializing, fail to appreciate fully.

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Its one of two or three people are introverted]. But we need to understand that theres so much more to introverted children beyond the fact it that takes them longer to warm up in new Dont Call Introverted Children extroverts and introverts wired seems extroverts have more active reward networks than introverts do. They start to focus on the reward so much and dont see warning signals as much as introverts would. Extroverts need to do, it too.

susan cain introverts


Susan Cain Instigates A ‘Quiet Revolution’ Of Introverts

From Gandhi to Joe DiMaggio to Mother Teresa to Bill Gates, introverts have done a lot of good work in the world. But being quiet, introverted or shy was sometimes looked at as a problem to overcome.

In the 1940s and ’50s the message to most Americans was: Don’t be shy. And in today’s era of reality television, Twitter and widespread self-promotion, it seems that cultural mandate is in overdrive.

Susan Cain who considers herself an introvert has written a new book that tells the story of how introversion fell out of style. She talks with NPR’s Audie Cornish about Quiet: the Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking.

The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking

Paperback, 352 pages |

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She talks with NPR’s Audie Cornish about Quiet: the Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Susan 352 purchase helps support NPR programming. the difference between introversion and shyness is really about having a preference for lower stimulation environments. So you can be introverted without having that particular fear at all, and you can be shy but also be an the culture of character vs. the culture of some extent, we’ve always had an admiration for extroversion in our culture. moved from what cultural historians call a culture of character to a culture of personality. But at the turn of the century, when we moved into this culture of personality, suddenly what was admired was to be magnetic and the same time, we suddenly had the rise of movies and movie stars. Aaron Fedor/Courtesy Random House hide caption becoming a writer, Susan Cain practiced corporate law for seven years and then worked as a negotiations the value of working of this is to say that it would be a good thing to get rid of teamwork and get rid of group work altogether.

>>Alana Weiss: Hello and welcome.My name is Alana Weiss and today it is my
pleasure to welcome Susan Cain to the Leading@Googleseries. Today we’ll hear about her new book Quiet:
The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t. Stop Talking.
Next week you’ll see its number four on the
New York Times Bestseller List and Susan willsoon be giving a presentation at TED 2012.Before Susan became a writer, she practiced
corporate law for seven years representingclients like J. P. Morgan and General Electric.
She, then, worked as a negotiations consultant
training all kinds of people from Hedge Fundmanagers to TV producers to college students
negotiating their first salary.She went to Princeton University and Harvard
Law School. Reflecting on these experiences Susan writes,
“From all this, you might guess that I’m ahardcore, wonderfully, self confident, pound
the table kind of person, when in fact I’mjust the opposite. “So today, in a room full of introverts and
their champions, Susan will share her researchand firsthand knowledge about the power of
introverts.
Thank you and help me in welcoming Susan.>>Susan Cain: Thank you, Alana. Hi everyone. Well, I have come to believe from researching
and writing this book for about seven yearsnow, started back in 2005, I’ve come to believe
that introversion and extroversion are asprofound a part of who we are, as core to
our identities as our gender.
And that therefore it’s very important to
understand where we truly fall on the introvert/extrovertspectrum.And when I say this, I’m not talking about
where we appear to fall, or who we appearto be because most of us, in this extroverted
culture of ours, act much more extrovertedthan we really are. So what I’m asking is who you are deep down
if you could spend your time exactly as youplease, your workdays, your weekends who would
you be?Would you be more of an introvert or would
you be more of an extrovert?And this is a really important question so
I want us to get to the answer, get to thebottom of it before we move forward with the
talk. And so what I’m gonna ask you to do is to
break up into groups of six quickly and sharewith your group a private and personal memory
from your childhood that you think illustrateswho you really are.
And then we’re gonna take the most private
and personal and profound of these memoriesand share them with the entire audience.And yeah, that’s right I’m just kidding. And if there are any consultants in the audience,
please don’t do this to people in future talks,introverts hate this kind of stuff. So let me just though get a show of hands
how many of you were thinking, when you stillthought that I might be serious, like how
can I get out of here right now without insulting the speaker?Yeah, yeah.
And how many of you would describe yourself
as introverts?Wow, oh my gosh could it be a hundred percent?No.Any extroverts in the room?Okay maybe. I would say we have about five extroverts. So that’s good because you can tell us your
perspective.
So, of course also the important thing is
not only to identify who we are but why arewe the way we are?What is it that makes an introvert an introvert
or an extrovert an extrovert?And the truth is there are as many answers
to this question as there are personalitypsychologists.But boiling it down, what really distinguishes
us is that introverts prefer environmentsthat are lower stimulation environments. So I’m talking now about social stimulation
so by that I mean you’d rather maybe havea glass of wine with a close friend as opposed
go to a thumping party full of strangers. But I’m not talking only about social stimulation
this also plays out in things like how muchnoise you like to have on in the background,
how bright the lights are, how bright youlike your lights to be.
Even something as crazy as if I place a drop
of lemon juice on your tongue, if I coulddo that right now, we would find that the
introverts in the room would salivate more in response to the lemon juice than
our five extroverts would, because introvertsrespond more to stimulation and therefore
prefer lower amounts of it.And this is so important to understand because
what it tells us is that if we want to optimizeour lives and to be operating at our fullest
powers and with our fullest amount of energy,we really need to put ourselves in environments
that have the proper amount of stimulationfor us. And there’s one interesting experiment by
the psychologist Russell Geen that has evenfound that if you give introverts and extroverts
math problems to solve with different levelsof background noise, the introverts will do
better when the background noise is lowerand the extroverts will solve the problems
better when the background noise is higher. So we all have our different sweet spots and
then, of course, the question becomes mostof life is kind of a one size fits all environment:
our schools, our workplaces are like this.
So how do you design things, how can we think
about ways to tailor the amount of stimulationfor individual preferences?And the fuel that lead me to write this book,
to spend the last seven years doing it, isthat I have been distressed to see that our
world is primarily set up in a way that Ibelieve maximizes the energies of extroverts
while not those of introverts.I think the bias in our culture against introversion
it is so deep and it’s so profound and weinternalize it from such an early age we don’t
even realize that we’re doing it. But from the minute that you’re introduced
to a preschool classroom, when you were ayoung child, you’re immediately in an environment
where you’re expected to be happy in a group. And teachers have been found, all the way
through at every age level of the educationalsystem, the vast majority of teachers believe,
thank you, oh much better.
The vast majority of teachers believe that
the ideal student is an extrovert.Even though, by the way, introverted kids
get better grades. And same thing is true at the work place,
in our work places, and you can tell me whatyour experiences are at Google, I would to
hear about this when we get to the Q and Alater. But, in general, in the work place, we now
live in an environment that it’s increasinglyopen plan offices where people don’t have
very much privacy, they’re working in groupsfor a lot of the time.
And studies tell us that introverts are routinely
passed over for leadership positions eventhough research by Adam Grant from the Wharton
School, recent ground breaking research, hasfound that introverted leaders often deliver
better outcomes than extroverts do.And I say all this, when I say this is not
to take anything away from extroverts, I thinkextroversion is a really enormously appealing
personality style, it’s just to say that thistendency, this kind of chauvinism that we
have, this two tier structure of how we viewpersonality leads to a colossal waste of talent
and of energy and of happiness and we needto be adopting much more of a yin and yang
approach of balance between the two styles. And I wanna talk about how this plays out
in our lives and I wanna show you why it isso important that we get to this place of
yin and yang and why we will all be the betterfor it; introverts for sure, but all of us. And to do this I’m gonna start in an unlikely
place.
I’m gonna take you on a very quick tour of
the animal kingdom starting witha colony of fruit flies.So it turns out that there are introverts
and extroverts in almost every single speciesof the animal kingdom. I mean, who knew this but I found
this out when I was doing my research. Many species have introverts and extroverts.
So down to the level of fruit flies, there
are what biologists call sitter fruit flieswho kind of sit still and kind of hop up
and down in place.And then there are rover fruit flies who explore
the outer margins of fruit fly society. And the reason that they do this, the reason
that many species are structured this wayis because the two types have very different
kinds of survival strategies. And so now I’m gonna move a little bit up
the animal kingdom and I’m gonna take youto the world of pumpkinseed fish.
An evolutionary biologist named David Sloan
Wilson did a really fascinating experimentwith a pond full of these fish where he came
to the pond and he dropped this gigantic trapright into the middle of the pond, an event
which he says from the fishes perspectivemust have seemed like a space ship landing
right in the middle of their backyard.And the fish responded really differently
to this foreign presence. Some of the fish, the introvert fish, responded
by saying, “I’m not getting anywhere nearthat thing. “And they hovered on the sidelines of the pond
and as a result they made it completely impossiblefor David Sloan Wilson to catch them in his
trap.
So had that trap been a real predator those
fish, the introverted fish, would have beenthe ones that survived.The extroverted fish immediately had to investigate
what this trap was and they wentswimming right up to it with no, with nothing
standing in their way and, of course, theywere immediately trapped. Had it been a real predator they would have
been zonked. But it’s not so simple because then Sloan
Wilson comes back a few days later with afishing net and he manages to scoop up the
introverted fish who had eluded him the firsttime around and he brings them back to his
lab.
And what he finds in this environment is that
the extroverted fish do much better becausethis is an alien world, it’s a world of unfamiliarity
and extroverts tend to be more comfortablevery quickly in unfamiliar environments.And so in this case, the extroverted fish
started eating more quickly and going abouttheir business more quickly while the introverted
fish were kind of hanging back and not faringwell. So this is all kind of a parable
to tell us that there really are differentkinds of strategies for success and strategies
for the survival and thriving of our species. And so now I’m gonna come back to human beings
finally and I want first to talk to you aboutchildren, about human children.
Let me ask you, how many people in the audience
here have kids?Okay, so probably about two thirds of you.But even for those of you who don’t have children,
the reason that what I’m gonna tell you isimportant is that human children they haven’t
yet absorbed the social norms of our societyand so therefore they act the way they are
really meant to act, the way they truly are. And so if we look at the behavior of children
we learn a lot about ourselves. So, of you parents, how many of you have ever
been to some kind of Mommy and me class ora Daddy and me class?Okay, not many of you.
So let me explain what this is ’cause it’s
gonna be relevant.This is basically a class where a parent or
a babysitter takes a young child usually ababy or a two year old, maybe a three year
old and you all sit around in a circle. I’m gonna show you what it looks like. Yeah it looks like this.
You all sit around in a circle and you sing
songs and you play musical instruments andlike that.Now what you will find in these classes is
that some of the children will behave likethe sitter fish meaning they will stay closely
by their parents’ sides, they’ll sit in theirparents’ laps, they won’t really participate
and they will look either scared or just reserved. And then others of the children like that
little baby in the read jumpsuitwho’s right in the middle of the room he’s
a rover child. And so he doesn’t know where his Mom is, it’s
all good with him, he’s perfectly comfortable.
Now the thing is that the parents of the sitter
children in this kind of a situation tendto feel pretty worried about their offspring.They feel like, “Wow, my child’s not getting
much out of this class and maybe this is gonnabe the story of his or her life. Maybe he or she will always have trouble participating
and won’t get the fruits of what life hasto offer. “And this is a really understandable worry
but I want to broaden the picture for youof what’s really happening with a child who
behaves this way.
That child is doing what psychologists call
paying alert attention to things.So it may appear as if the child is sitting
inertly and passively and not taking anythingin, but that’s not what’s happening. They’re actually, they’re learning by observing
and they’re observing in a very intent way. And so very often with these children, I see
it again and again, it may take them minutesor days or weeks or months to actually plunge
into the situation at hand, but when theydo they already know the social rules, they
already know the subtle nuances of what’sgoing on because they have been paying attention
all that time.
And this form of paying attention to things,
of noticing things that are scary but noticingthings in general at a subtle level, this
carries through with these children all theway into adulthood.It becomes a kind of way of dealing with the
world and a way of processing information. So, for example, if you give these children
when they’re a little bit older this kindof a puzzle to solve where you have two pictures
that seem to be very similar and you ask themto figure out what the subtle differences
are between them, these kinds of childrenwill spend much more time than other children
will comparing the two. In the lab you can actually see their eyes
darting back and forth more times than thoseof bolder children.
And they more often get the right answers.And this kind of thing continues as these
kids grow up. So you give them puzzles to solve, adult size
puzzles, they take more time to do it. They get better grades in school, they get,
they’re more likely to get Phi Beta Kappakeys.
And then the other thing and I’m
sorry about this extroverts but introvertshave actually been found to know more
about many subjects.In one study of college freshman they tested
the students of their knowledge of, what wasit, 21 different subjects. It was like everything from art to astronomy
to physics to statistics and they found thatthe introverts knew more about all of these
subjects. And what’s relevant about this is that the
introverts are not smarter, as far as IQ goesthe two groups, introverts and extroverts,
totally similar IQ.
So instead what’s happening here, the advantage
that introverts have in these kinds of intellectualproblem solving puzzles is the very behavioral
style for which introverts often criticized,the very behavioral style that has you sitting
still more, reflecting more, being more reserved,being more just slow to process stuff, that
is the flip side of the behavioral style thathelps you in problem solving.Now another way in which these kinds of children
grow up to play really important roles in our culture is introverts and extroverts
have very different attitudes to risk taking,profoundly different attitudes. Extroverts are much more likely, when they
see something that they want, to go for it. And this actually goes down to the level of
neurochemistry.
Extroverts have been found to have more active
reward networks in their brain so that ifthey see something that they want or if they’re
contemplating a promotion or whatever it isliterally their reward networks become more
activated and they get excited and this isaccompanied by all kinds of joyful and fizzy
emotions.And it’s actually these emotions, I think,
that make extroverts such delightful company. They’re kind of like champagne bubble emotions
that come with the contemplation of a reward. And this can be a really great thing because
it helps us to seize the day when we havethese kinds of feelings.
But the downside to this way of being, is
that when you’re that focused on a rewardyou don’t see the warning signals that are
also coming at you saying, “Hum.maybe youshould stop. Maybe there’s a problem here. “I mean you literally don’t see them as much.
And introverts are much less likely to fall
prey to that dynamic.I mean they sometimes do, this stuff is not
black and white, but they’re less likely tofall prey to it. And so this is not to say that introverts
don’t also take risks ’cause they do. But they tend to be more slow and more circumspect
about it.
One study of a group of traders at a London
investment bank found that the introvertswere the most successful traders, probably
because of this way of processing information.And another example of this would be somebody
like a Warren Buffett who is a self describedintrovert and is famous for sitting out on
market bubbles that other people fell preyto ’cause he is the type of person, he’s actually
said that the key to investing for him isnot his knowledge but his temperament. So he pays attention to warning signals and
he sees them when they’re coming. Okay, there are actually so many advantages
that I want to talk to you about but I’m gonnarun outta time so I’m just gonna tell you
about one more for now and we can talk morein the Q and A as well.
I wanna talk to you about creativity.So –two important studies by, one by the psychologist
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and another by Gregory. Feist have found that the most spectacularly
creative people in a number of fields havetended to be introverts. And they’re not just any introverts these
are introverts who have extroverted sidesto them as well.
They’re people who can go out and they can
exchange ideas and they can advance ideasand so on.But they’re also people who are comfortable
with solitude. And that is the key component because solitude
turns out to be a real catalyst to creativity. Not the be all and end all it’s not the, it’s
a necessary but not sufficient condition,but it is necessary.
And the reason for this is, it turns out we’re
such social creatures all of us introverts included, we’re such social creatures
that we can’t literally be around a groupof people without being, without instinctively
mimicking the opinions of the people in thegroup.So even something as seemingly primal and
personal and visceral as who you’re attractedto, you will actually, if you’re in a group
of people who have declared so and so to beattractive, you will start finding so and
so more attractive than you otherwise wouldhave. And this is just a kind of fundamental tenet
of human nature. And so if you want to go and find out what
you really think about things you almost can’tdo it without secluding yourself to some degree.
But I wanna be really clear about what I’m
saying here and what I’m not saying.So when I say this I’m not trying to argue
that man is an island after all,to contradict John Donne. We’re human beings, we love and we need each
other. And I’m also not trying to say that we should
be abolishing group work and abolishing teamwork.
I think it’s clear that we need that part
of the creative puzzle as well.And that this is probably increasingly true
everyday because as the problems that we facegrow more complex we’re going to need more
and more and more than we’ve ever done beforeto really stand on each other’s shoulders. But what I am saying is that there are two
kind of contradictory drives in human natureand one of these drives is the drive that
makes us come together. It’s the drive that makes us love each other
and need other and trust each other.
And then another of these drives is the drive
for solitude and for autonomy and for independence.Excuse me. And introverts have that latter drive particularly
strongly but this is a drive that we all share. And so if we’re going to, we need to figure
out ways of harnessing both of these drivesas productively as we can.
And so I’m just gonna call for three different
kind of takeaways for us to think about and.I’m talking now at the kind of big picture
level and then at the Q and A you can askme questions that are more specific about
your lives, your work lives or your personallives or whatever. So the first takeaway I’d like to share with
you is just to give yourself more time forquiet, more time for solitude, more time to
just get away, to feel truly entitled to itinstead of feeling like it’s something that
you need to feel guilty about. The second one is to think really differently
about the next generation of introverted childrenbecause the same children who have been sitting
on their parents’ laps when they’re two orthree years old and then grow into teenagers
who develop solitary interests that they loveto pursue whether it’s in spider taxonomy
or for 19th century art, or whatever it happensto be these children often are the great artists
and writers and thinkers of tomorrow or they’rejust really fantastic human beings.
And so we need to stop treating them as if
there’s something wrong with them and insteadappreciate and take delight in what is right
about them.And then the final thing that I would say
to you is for all of you to really think hardabout what is the key to your own power. and from fairy tales that there are many kinds
of different powers that are on offer in thisworld. And some of us are given lightsabers like
Luke Skywalker, and we get to swashbuckleour way through the galaxies.
And some people are given scholars’ education,
I am sorry wizard’s educations.But then there are some people where the power
that is given to them is a key to a secretgarden that is full of inner riches. And the trick to living well, the trick to
living well is to use the power that has beengranted to you instead of trying to make do
with all the different powers that are onoffer. What is the power that has been given to you?And so that is what I wanna say to you in
closing.
May you all use your powers well and brilliantly.Thank you very much. >>male #1: We have questions of course. >>Susan Cain: Okay I know there are questions.
So you can ask me anything, any topic.It’s all good. >>Alana Weiss: And I’ll kick it off by
>>Susan Cain: You’re gonna start>>Alana Weiss: by a reading a –
>>Susan Cain: Okay. >>Alana Weiss: question that came from Lynn
who’s a Googler based in Chicago.
>>Susan Cain: Okay.>>Alana Weiss: And she wanted to know what
you thought of the cover of Time Magazine. She writes, “As soon as I saw the cover, I
immediately became alarmed by how inaccurate. Time could have been with its choice.
The cover says, ‘The Power of Shyness.’This is ironic since Susan Cain who’s book
this Time article is based on wrote an articletitled, ‘Don’t Call Introverted Children Shy’
published by Time online at the same time. I believe this cover was widely read and it
is a respectable magazine. “And she is concerned about this doing disservice
to children by reinforcing a misconception.
>>Susan Cain: Yeah, so thank you that’s an
important question.So yeah, Time Magazine did have this cover
story about a week or two ago that was basedon the research from my book and they called
it, “The Power of Shyness. “Shyness has nothing, well that’s not true,
shyness is very different from introversion. So what shyness is, is it’s the fear of social
judgment.
It’s the fear of being socially humiliated,
whereas introversion is just what I was talkingabout before, the preference for lower stimulation
environments.And, in practice, these two do overlap to
some degree so there are some people who areboth shy and introverted. But psychologists debate to what degree they
overlap and so it muddies the waters to actas if they’re synonymous. But it’s also a tricky thing because at the
same time that I say all this there’s sometimesa tendency nowadays more and more people are
talking about the value of introversion andin doing this I think there’s sometimes a
tendency to demonize shyness and I don’t wannado that either.
Because really the under, shyness itself doesn’t
have that much to recommend it.It’s a painful emotion. But the underlying temperament, the careful
and sensitive temperament that tends to producepeople who are either shy or introverted,
that temperament has a lot of value to it. And these things all get kind of thrown together
into one soup.
>>male #2: Hi, thank you >>Susan Cain: Yes, hi.>>male #2: for your talk. >>Susan Cain: Sure. >>male #2: One of the things that I’ve been
struggling with or at least listening to allof this is that I always struggled that I
didn’t find myself as extroverted or introverted.
>>Susan Cain: Yeah.>>male #2: And I’ve taken the Myers Briggs
five times, six times, numerous times >>Susan Cain: >>male #2: and extroverts will tell me, “Oh
you’re definitely introverted” and then introvertswill tell me, “Oh you’re definitely extroverted. “>>Susan Cain: Right, right. >>male #2: Even in your talk, like there’s
certain elements that you’ll tell about thatlike when I was a child like I know I was
that way >>Susan Cain: Yeah.
>>male #2: but then there’s other things that
are like, oh no, I’ve definitely introvertedso >>Susan Cain: Yeah.>>male #2: and then you have these key takeaways
where it’s like I gotta find my inner self >>Susan Cain: Um hum. >>male #2: or like whatever gift has been
given to me. >>Susan Cain: Right.
>>male #2: Well it’s very unclear to like
what I’m supposed to be emphasizing and >>Susan Cain: >>male #2: no one’s ever been able to tell
me otherwise >>Susan Cain: Uh huh.>>male #2: so I’m interested to hear, I mean
am I like a mutant case or >>Susan Cain: >>male #2: like or like is it, ’cause I know it’s a gradient
and I know >>Susan Cain: Yeah. >>male #2: I know there’s a lot of ambiguity
around it, but I’d love to hear your thoughtson that. >>Susan Cain: Yeah, absolutely.
There’s actually a word for people like you.You’re not a mutant you’re an ambivert. And that is the word for people who fall kind
of right of the middle of the introvert/extrovertspectrum. And I often think that people who are ambiverts
have the best of both worlds because I thinkeach of these personality styles has real
gifts and people like you can, I think, choosemore easily which style you want to adapt
at any given moment.
But I will say, too, even for people who really
feel like you’re on one side of the spectrumor the other we’re still gloriously mish moshed
creatures, all of us.So we all have a little bit of the other side
in us. It’s kind of like if I were standing up here
trying to give a talk on what maleness isand what femaleness is. I could get it mostly right but I wouldn’t
be able to get it right for any one humanbeing, and I wouldn’t be able to get it right
even for the group in general because it’sa little bit too complex.
And yet it’s useful to talk about these categories
’cause it does illuminate something.So –
your question. >>male #2: Yeah, thank you. >>Susan Cain: Hi.
>>male #3: Hello.So I’ve read a little bit about just kind
of different temperaments like the Please. Understand Me books >>Susan Cain: Um hum. >>male #3: Keirsey I think it is I’m not sure
but I’m wondering how your definition of introversionand extroversion relates to these other aspects
of temperament like introspective and thingslike that.
Like how do these, how do they interact with
each other?>>Susan Cain: Yeah, it’s all very complicated
what this stuff is exactly.But I would say the definition that I’m using,
like in this talk, is it’s pretty similarto what you would find in those books. And another way of looking at it is to ask
yourself the kind of famous question you’veprobably most of you heard, “How do I feel
after I’ve been out and about in company?Do I feel energized and like I want more of
it or do I feel oh I’m really depleted I’vegotta go home and just take a break?”And the people in the latter category tend
to be more on the introverted side and usefulto know it ’cause then you can build in the
breaks you need. Which is something I have been doing on my
book tour.
>>male #3: Thanks.I guess >>Susan Cain: Sure. >>male #3: I was just asking ’cause it seems
like a lot of the qualities of introvertsthat you described are sort of these introspective
qualities sort of observing or taking in theworld around them. >>Susan Cain: Right, right.
And I’m sorry and your question about that
is?>>male #3: >>Susan Cain: Okay.Yeah, yeah I would say that is very much part
of the way I’ve defining introversion. Yes. Hi.
>>male #4: Hi.It’s somewhat related to the last question. So you have a, your definition about seeking
lower stimulation environments >>Susan Cain: Um hum. >>male #4: which most of the other qualities
fall out of, but another difference.
I believe is extroverts talk all the time
>>Susan Cain: Um hum.>>male #4: and introverts wait ’til they have
something to say. >>Susan Cain: Yeah. >>male #4: And that doesn’t really >>Susan Cain: Absolutely.
>>male #4: seem to follow from the previous
definition.How does that, how is that, does that fall
out of it?>>Susan Cain: Well you mean what does that
have to do with stimulation. >>male #4: Yeah. >>Susan Cain: Yeah, well it really, actually
if you think about it, talking and interactingis kind of the highest form of stimulation
that there is.
If you think about a, like a simple conversation
with your best friend there’s an enormousamount of stuff going on with it.You’re reading body language, you’re reading
facial expressions, you’re thinking aboutwhat you wanna say, you’re reacting to what
they said. And so this is something that extroverts tend
to plunge into with a little more ease. >>male #4: Right, but they will keep talking
with no response at all.
>>Susan Cain: And >>male #4: So it’s not working, they’re not
getting stimulation from that so it’s >>Susan Cain: Oh, well I don’t if I would
say that.Well, first of all I don’t know that all extroverts
do that. >>male #4: Right. >>Susan Cain: But to the extent that that’s
happening, the active talking itself is aform of >>male #4: Alright.
>>Susan Cain: of real activity and of stimulation.>>male #4: Okay. >>Susan Cain: Yeah. Hi.
>>male #5: Hi Susan.Thank you for coming. So >>Susan Cain: You’re welcome. >>male #5: so I’m pretty junior in my career.
I feel like many times I heard like from career
advices is that you should build your network >>Susan Cain: Yeah.>>male #5: you should meet a lot of people;
you should know a lot of people >>Susan Cain: Yeah. >>male #5: I feel like obviously extroverts
has a leg up on introverts on this. So what are your thoughts about that?>>Susan Cain: Yeah, I think that the key to
these kinds of exhortations is to find waysto do it that really are natural to you.
And that sounds ahh, that sounds sort of fluffy.But it actually really can be done. So for example, if you’re going to a networking
event, I always approach any networking eventas a series of one on one conversations. And not only that I consider it to be a success
if I have made one honest to God new, authenticrelationship with one person who’s company
I sincerely enjoyed and look forward to stayingin touch with.
Because honestly how many people can you stay
in touch with in a real way after any givenevent?And if you use that test and you go to enough
events you will find pretty soon that you’vegot a Rolodex of people where you really wanna
help them and they really wanna help you.So that’s just one example but I think there
are ways to reframe almost all of the thingsthat we need to do in the workplace in ways
that suit our natural strengths. And then I would say in addition to that sometimes
you really do have to kind of go out of, pushyourself outside of your natural temperament. And extroverts need to do this, too.
An extrovert might need to sit down and work
on a memo for five hours when they might preferto be chatting with colleagues in the hallway.So I think it’s natural and good and healthy
to be able to stretch ourselves to some extent,but just to make sure that we’re not living
in that place that’s not really who we aremost of the time. Sure. Hi.
>>male #6: Unlike a lot of the people here,
I’m an extrovert married to an introvert >>Susan Cain: Yeah.>>male #6: and I’m also interested, so I’m
A interested in learning how to better workas an extrovert, deal with introverts >>Susan Cain: Right. >>male #6: and also >>Susan Cain: >>male #6: also I’d welcome any advice what
extroverts can learn from some of the advantagesthat introverts have that may not have come
as natural to us but that we may want to workon. >>Susan Cain: Right, right.
Would you like me to speak first about >>male #6: Either, either>>Susan Cain: the marital.Yeah. So this is actually a pretty common question
because I don’t know, the studies say thatit’s half of marriages that are introvert/extrovert
and that the other half people are marriedto those of a like type. But I can tell you in my anecdotal experience
it seems like most couplings that I’ve seenare yin and yang couplings where it’s one
introvert and one extrovert.
And I think is because there really is a natural
and mutual attraction between the two types.And this has been found by the way int he
workplace, too, that teams that are composedof a mix of introverts and extroverts that
these teams actually, they’re more effectivebecause people are happier in that kind of
a setting. But having said that there are certain conflicts
that arise and I can tell you about two orthree of the main ones that come up. So one of them is the question of how much
to socialize.
It might be that your partner wants to stay
home all the time and you wanna be going outall the time and so the key is to really have
a sense of understanding where each person’scoming from.And I always say pre negotiate these things
so that you don’t have to negotiate it everysingle Friday and Saturday night. Just agree in advance, “Okay we’re going out
one night every weekend, we’re snuggling onthe sofa the other night. That’s it, we don’t have to talk about it
anymore.
“Another thing that comes up, that’s relevant
to both marriages and workplace situations,with the two types is they actually have really
different approaches to solving conflict.So in general, there’s some exceptions to
this, but in general introverts prefer a muchmore mild mannered approach to conflict and
might prefer to avoid it altogether. And extroverts tends to approach conflict
in a more confrontive style it’s called. So I don’t know if you’ve seen this in your
situation, but that can lead to real misunderstandings’cause it can make the introverted person
in the relationship feel kind of aggressedagainst if their partner or their colleague
brings up an issue too directly.
But the extrovert can feel lonely and abandoned
if the introvert doesn’t want to address anissue.Like the extrovert might feel like they don’t
really care that much or they’re not thatengaged with me or else they would take the
trouble to just hammer this thingout. So with all this stuff really understanding
where it’s coming from can go a long way. >>male #6: And if you have any comments for
extroverts trying to learn from introverts >>Susan Cain: Oh yes, yes, yes.
Yeah so a big one that I would say is to learn
from introverts’ tendency to think carefullyabout things.I was talking before about the tendency of
extroverts to sometimes get so carried awaywith positive emotions and with wanting to
go after a goal that you might not take thetime to slow down and see what’s really happening. And, in fact, if you do slow down, if you
put in place certain mechanisms that willsay stop before you act you will be able to
see the warning signals that get in your way. It’s the moving and the action that prevents
you from actually seeing those warning signals.
And then another thing I would say extroverts
can learn from introverts is just to kindof sit down and be still and see
what you can get from solitude and from justthinking and being and not moving all the
time.>>male #6: Thank you. >>Susan Cain: You’re welcome. Hi.
>>male #7: Hi.>>Susan Cain: Hi. >>male #7: I keep thinkin’ about your fruit
flies >>Susan Cain: Yeah. >>male #7: that stay in one spot, introverts
stay in one spot and then you have the extrovertfruit flies that kind of roam the world.
>>Susan Cain: Yeah, yeah.>>male #7: And so extroverts are kind of more
roamers and introverts kind of stay in thesame place or at least their more familiar
in the same area. What does that say about, what studies have
been done about extroverts and introvertsin relationships as far as like faithfulness
or, or whether they roam >>Susan Cain: Oh, Aha. Actually, extroverts have been found to be
a little less faithful.
It kind of goes into the overall profile of
risk taking we were talking about before.They’ve actually been found to get into car
accidents, to place larger financial bets,to be somewhat less faithful in relationships,
I’m sorry, but that doesn’t mean it’s alwaystrue. These are just >>male #7: I’m only partially an extrovert,
by the way. >>Susan Cain: Yeah.
Some of these things have small affect, but
there are differences between the two groups.>>male #7: Okay, thanks. >>Susan Cain: Sure. >>female #1: I just wanted to say you had
a pretty compelling talk to get me up to amicrophone.
It only happens like once or twice a year
>>Susan Cain: Oh, thank you.Thank you for being here. >>female #1: Yeah, so I just really appreciate
your book and also I wanted to ask you abouthow introverts can get more visibility at
work because on my team there are people whoare shameless self promoters who are always
saying, “Look I launched this thing >>Susan Cain: Yeah, yeah. >>female #1: and I’m just like, “Oh I could
never do that.
“I kind of look at them with admiration and
then a little bit of irritation because it’ssomething I can’t quite do myself >>Susan Cain: Right, right.Can you figure out what is the, what’s the
essence of what’s keeping you from doing it?Is it that you don’t really approve of it
or that you want to but you can’t?>>female #1: It just seems too, I don’t know
just self promotion is really difficult forme. It’s being very verbal about what you’ve done
well. I guess it’s kind of just saying that you’ve
done a better job than other people maybeor I don’t know.
>>Susan Cain: Right, right.I mean so that’s one, I don’t if you guys
all heard that but that’s one thing rightthere. If you view self promotion as being an announcement
of superiority over your peers that couldbe pretty inhibiting. So that’s one thing I would just suggest reframing.
It’s not really that, it’s more just talking
about what you personally have done and don’tthink about it in relative terms.But I would also say, with all these things,
is to try to find ways of doing it that arecomfortable for you because if you try to
ape somebody else it’s never gonna happen. You might push yourself to do it once or twice
but you won’t keep doing it. So might it work for you to call, to ask your
boss, for example, for a meeting one on onewhere you just talk about your career and
you kind of go over the things that you thinkyou’ve been doing well and where you might
wanna be in the future?And maybe come to that meeting with a list,
a memo that you’ve prepared in advance thatlists the ways you’ve contributed.
Like I wonder if something like that would
be more >>female #1: Yeah >>Susan Cain: comfortable for you.>>female #1: sounds very appealing >>Susan Cain: Does it?>>female #1: >>Susan Cain: Yeah. >>female #1: Thank you. >>Susan Cain: You’re welcome.
Hello again.>>male #8: So do extroverts have more fun?>>Susan Cain: Oh, yeah, well. So this is something I talk about this a lot
on my blog. I have a blog it’s called, The Power of Introverts
dot com and I talk about this ’cause it comesup in the research a lot.
The idea that extroverts might be happier
than introverts because it does seem thatin general extroverts have more of the, they’re
very exuberant, very fizzy emotions that Iwas talking about that kind of accompany the
pursuit of reward.But being a pretty happy introvert myself,
I’m always motivated to think that must notbe the full picture. So yeah, what I think is that there are a
lot of different ways of having fun and thatmany of the ways that introverts tend to have
fun, they’re not necessarily defined thatway and they’re accompanied by a different
constellation of emotions from the one thatwe normally associate with fun. So it’s not like jump for joy, huge grin on
your face.
It’s something else, it’s something quieter.And I’ve even started to explore this state
that I call the happiness of melancholy whichis, why is it that things like minor key music,
I love minor key music it always makes mehappy to listen to it, why, why does it make
me happy?Why does the evanescence of a cherry blossom
make us so happy when we know it’s gonna witherand disappear a week from the day that we’re
viewing it?Why does that make us happy that, it’s like
the fact of it’s imminent disappearance issomehow elevating. And I think, I’m trying to figure out what
it is, I think it has something to do withthese kinds of states make us acutely aware
of the fragile beauty of life and of loveand that that’s a form of a happiness in and
of itself that is not necessarily capturedin the view of fun and of happiness that we
tend to think of in our culture. So that may be a more philosophical
answer than what you were hoping for, butthose are my thoughts for today.
Yes.>>female #2: Hi, I work on a team where I’m
the introvert who is supposed to lead >>Susan Cain: Uh huh. >>female #2: and I have a super extroverted
member. And very strong, very strong team.
But how do I, if I take a long time to talk
as you can see I’m doing right now >>Susan Cain: Uh huh, uh huh.>>female #2: and I have a colleague who can
fill that space very easily. >>Susan Cain: Right. >>female #2: Are there strategies for me to
honor that person’s voice yet still be partof the conversation?>>Susan Cain: But still be part of the conversation?Yeah, I mean does, are you at all comfortable
ever interrupting or does interrupting feelto you like you’re breaking a sacred trust?’Cause I mean I think that is something a
lot of people feel.
>>female #2: I think that I, yeah, I think
it’s challenging, yeah.>>Susan Cain: Yeah, yeah. So one thing would be to understand that to
interrupt is actually not a terrible violationespecially if the other person is talkin’
a lot. But and it might be helpful for you to interrupt
using your hands like to say, “Oh that’s agreat point, what about this?”And kind of signal that, physically that you’re
now taking the space.
I’m trying to think of other ideas for you.Another thing, do you have the kind of relationship
where you can actually talk about this, youand your colleague?>>female #2: That, that sounds like a good
idea. >>Susan Cain: More comfortable?>>female #2: >>Susan Cain: Uh huh, uh huh. >>female #2: Okay.
>>Susan Cain: Okay.>>female #2: Thanks. >>Susan Cain: You’re welcome. And I thank you so much.
You were a really wonderful audience and it
was an honor to be here with you.Thank you. . .


there’s like an overlap between introversion and China’s so some introverted people are also shy and then some are not and then you have extrovert swear shy so it’s kind of complex welcome to the art of charm I’m your host Jordan Harbinger today we’re talking with author and entrepreneurs Susan Cain author of quiet the power of introverts in a world that can’t stop talking sound familiar you should listen to this show if you’re interested in better ways to understand our introverted friends or are introverted selves there’s action steps for introverts to become more social and a list of reasons as to why being an introvert might actually be an advantage socially or in negotiation and in many other areas especially creative and artistic pursuits we’re glad to have you here with us today at alc so enjoy this one with Susan Cain by the way if you’re new to the show we’d love to send you some top episodes and the aoc toolbox where we discuss things like reading body language and nonverbal communication the science of attraction negotiation techniques networking mentorship influence persuasion tactics and everything else we teach here at the art of charm in the u.s. just text charmed 2 three 3 four 4 for that CH AR m ed two three three four four four and everywhere else you can go to the art of charm com also at the art of charm calm / podcast you can find the full show notes for this and all previous episodes of the show alright here’s Susan Cain so when I was a kid I was really really quiet then it’s culturally looked down upon to be quiet especially when you’re a kid in this day and age so I started to get louder and be more outgoing and I got in trouble for that too so it was really annoying for me growing up being a quote unquote quiet person because it was almost like that wasn’t a good thing I noticed in your book you you do mention America basically started valuing extraversion when we started to urbanize and quiet as pejorative now why is that what’s going on here oh gosh yeah the huge problem and it’s really not random that you started out asking that question by talking about your experience as a kid because that really is when most quiet people become aware that there’s some house and she’s wrong with the way they tend to be next really you get sent that message very early on in life yeah this started about a hundred years ago or so as you were suggesting with urbanization so it’s basically like all of a sudden people started moving out of their small towns that they had once lived in alongside people they had known all their lives and they started moving out into big cities and trying to ingratiate themselves or perspective corporate employers for the first time and so it suddenly became very important what kind of first impression you could make how good a sales person you were how much charisma you had and it was like we moved from what historians called the culture of character where people were valued more on were you a good person inside to a culture of personality no to me really fascinating aspect of this is you can literally like read the self help books that were written in the 19th century and they would talk about how do you become a person of good character but then in the 20th century the self help books suddenly start shifting and it all becomes about how do you cultivate charisma and magnetism and dominance and those kinds of qualities and we’re really still living with that heritage today so we shift from character to personality in speaking of personality by the way I went to I checked out of Tony Robbins event which I ended up leaving early this past week and there were a lot of implications here that to meet social fear we got to be hyper social and that everything is kind of your selling whether you know it or not which is a concept were very familiar with but there was a lot of leaning in on that and we see these sales skillset as a virtue to share our gifts with others right so we have to work on that because if we don’t we’re kind of sheltering ourselves in the world and we’re not giving the world the gift of us and all this stuff in additionally as you mentioned in your book extraversion is something that companies have started to hire for as well and people even started selecting mates based on this quality I mean it’s become something that’s so pervasive that if you’re quiet now it’s like all your defective man you got to get on that yeah I find in particular the whole metaphor of sales as the way we think about human interaction I find not to be so deeply problematic because i’m not talking about or advocating for people turning into Hermits although I do think there’s actually a small portion of the population for whom that really is the way they want to live and they should be blessed to live that way but I think for most people who one would describe as introverts it’s not about being a hermit so much but it is about choosing the way you connect with people and I think for everybody introverts and extroverts much better off just thinking of other people in terms of like okay who is a kindred spirit here who do I truly want to connect with who do I truly have something to share with and let that be the mo as opposed to I’m going to sell someone the gift of my thoughts and ideas let’s just all wrong we’ll get into why that’s wrong but I will say that I developed this performance and sales skill set myself and it has made my life quite a bit better but i can say pretty definitively because i haven’t gotten rid of my reflective and introverted tendencies that the reason that it has improved my life is because otherwise i don’t think i’d be able to fit in well in current times which as you say value personality over character this for me had evolved out of necessity and the pain I went through as an introvert as a kid especially not out of some love for the process of becoming an extrovert that was a distant second to just make the pain stop I don’t want to be around people this is painful I can’t deal with this i’m going to end up playing video games in my underwear for my whole life I better fix it that’s what prompted the changes for me it wasn’t because oh I just love going out and being social all the time I mean it was like if I’d known what your book was saying now I probably wouldn’t put so much freaking pressure on myself in every area of extraversion which made me feel like there was something wrong with me yeah I get what you’re saying and so just to be clear like I actually am a big believer in everyone in Traverse an extra virtual life cultivating the social skills that you need to be able to work in this world and to be able to make connections and so on so i’m not talking about saying oh it’s a perfect world you don’t need social skills i don’t mean that at all i’m saying rather that the social skills that we adopt should be ones that are based on time to form nuin connections with people as opposed to selling things to people so I talked to a lot of young people who gone through the evolution that you’re talking about and what ends up happening is they’re so understandably desperate to not be alone playing video games for all their lives that they adopt a completely false persona that they’re in effect selling every weekend at their frat party or wherever it is and they end up feeling like it’s not them and they can’t keep it up Brian little this amazing personality psychologists call reputational confusion where you develop a reputation for being personality X but that’s not really who you are so eventually and you sort of run out of steam and you have to rework it anyway my feeling is that if you start from a place of feeling entitled to be who you are I’m a quiet reflective person and that’s cool and now i’m going to figure out how to make genuine connections with people from that place you’re much better off I think I agree with that in that I missed the boat on that but it sounds like it would have ended up a little bit better for me right I mean what happened in your case you developed all these skills because you were feeling uncomfortable with what your true self was like and then what happened were you happy so what happened was when I was a kid like I said I was really quiet and then it was like oh he’s so quiet but I noticed all the people that were well liked were not quiet so I became loud so I got in trouble a bunch and then I noticed I was getting bored in school so I was really introverted and I started getting in trouble for computer hacking and wiretapping when I was like 13 and my parents were like go out and play with her friends you’re not allowed to sit in the house and do all this internet stuff because you’re just going to get in trouble and we can’t keep an eye on you so it was like all right I can’t even hang out of my own house now so I got to go out and figure this out and then I joined athletic teams and that’s not really conducive to being an introvert a lot of the time so I was getting a lot of attention that way and then I started to get attention from the opposite sex and that was terrifying so I worked on being comfortable or pretending I was comfortable in those situations and I noticed Wow high school is more fun when I’m confident so I worked on that and then I went to college and I worked on that and then I went to law school and I worked on that and then I realized oh I’m starting to get the hang of this is very helpful for me and a lot of other people who are going through something similar and that was the origin of this show in itself which was teach people how to be more extroverted and be more confident and again some life skills and so it was really rewarding for that reason but what we kind of didn’t realize was okay you can get these extroverted skills you can get these sales skills you can get these life skills and confidence but you don’t have to get rid of everything else you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and now that i live in Silicon Valley I see that companies are doing this to give guys like Steve Wozniak who designed things alone and said nothing good has ever been created by a committee then you’ve got this kind of new group think that says well creativity is inherently social so no more cubicles or offices were on an open floor plan which is like the introvert of Engineers worst nightmare yeah you know the funny thing is when I first started researching my book so this was back in like 2006 I live in New York but I went out to Silicon Valley and plopped myself down there and I thought that I was arriving at this place that was going to be a nirvana for introverts because I knew there were so many of them there you know contributing so much but what I found instead and I’m still finding to this day is that you have company after company that’s chock full of introverted engineers and other people and they’re contributing massive amounts and they all feel as if they’re being told to be someone they’re not and so it’s actually a huge problem which to their credit I have found many companies to be really receptive to thinking about and addressing because it doesn’t make sense for anybody it just ends up being a waste of people’s energy and talent to always be trying to go against the grain of who they actually are and yet we’re trained to do that as much as possible me it’s all right to to learn and grow I want to be really specific here because it’s great to learn and grow it’s great to push the edges of your comfort zone and things like that but this is something that may be a little bit more ingrained and you mentioned this in the book as well there’s two sort of different personality paths if you will or character pass there’s temperament which is inborn and personality which is a mix of what happens later can you explain the difference between these two things I mean are we born with a certain personality introvert versus extrovert what is nature and what is nurture yeah I mean so there’s no human being who’s not a mishmash of nature and nurture for one thing so personality psychologists do you believe that introversion and extraversion are among the most heritable of personality traits but even there there’s still a gigantic component of environmental factors temperament as you just as is kind of like about a baby’s born and what are the behavioral and emotional profiles that that baby tends to have so we do know that certain babies are born with more reactive nervous systems which means they just kind of like startled more and react more in response to any kind of stimulation with anything from drinking some sugar water to being around unfamiliar kids when they’re a little bit older so the babies who have these more reactive nervous systems are the ones who are more likely to grow up to be introverts and that’s pretty well documented but that said you know people go through tremendous shifts throughout their lives so you could have a kid who that they has this kind of reactive nervous system and is therefore what’s a pretty shy at a birthday party or something but over time they will develop the skills and the comfort level where that shyness can go away almost completely but at the same time one of the scientists at Jerry Kagan at Harvard was one of the leaders in this field and he says it’s very unlikely somebody who’s born with the temperament of the build a gate they’re not going to turn into a Bill Clinton you stretch you develop you acquire all kinds of skills people shift all through their lives but you kind of shift only so much so I’m all for people acquiring the skills they need and stepping outside their comfort zones when they need to for the service of the goals they have in life for sure I would just caution not to attribute all such skills and like call those extroverted skills because I don’t think that’s really how it works like I think if you look more closely you see that there are some people who tend to connect with others and sometimes in a really skillful way but they’re doing it in a more quiet style and that could be every bit as effective or more you know depending on the context absolutely I think it can be better to be an introvert in certain social situations we’ll talk about that a bit I want to say one thing though you are really good at not being talked over or interrupt does that come from being talked over and interrupted a lot when you were younger and figuring like no longer am I going to deal with that I’m gonna plow forward because you do it in a way that’s not bull in a china shop but you definitely don’t let people talk over you and I noticed that sometimes introverted people will just kind of let that happen a lot i used to do that a lot as well oh gosh it’s really interesting i think i’m pretty confident even though i think of myself like I’ll sort of always be a shy person even though I’ve gotten over a lot of my shyness there but I’m also confident at the same time but I also think you know we were talking before about how we both used to be corporate lawyers in our old life when I stopped practicing corporate law I actually started training people in negotiation skills it was actually how I made my living for a while while I was learning how to become a writer and I did a lot of work training women and also I didn’t think of it at the time was training introverts and we have the language for it but that was what I was doing I was training people who were the kind who wouldn’t have thought of themselves as being good negotiators so I thought a lot during that time about how to be assertive or be able to interrupt or not be interrupted while still feeling like you’re your own self it just it felt me like the advice people are always getting was like you can speak up and be this very dominant person if you’re not that person feel and some level like it’s kind of wrong to be that person I mean on some deep instinctual level then it’s never going to work despite having so many introverted tendencies you wrote the book in a cafe you mentioned why did you do that that seems like the opposite type of environment that somebody is a classic introvert would want to be in when they’re doing deep work like writing creating yeah I don’t know you know I lived in Manhattan for 17 years and I was living there when I wrote the book and wrote it in this amazing cafe in Greenwich Village I often think of Manhattan in general as a kind of introverts nirvana because it’s a really great feeling to be around other people and feel like you’re picking up all their creative energy at the same time when there’s not a social expectation that you have to be on and talk to them so like the cafe where I did all my work was frequented by a lot of writers and other creative people and there’s just something about that I really believe that all humans are pretty porous you know and you pick stuff up without even being conscious of it and it feeds you in a really good way you’re like feeding each other but yeah but you’re still kind of free in terms of the social norms of the cafe to be looking down at your laptop and sipping your coffee and gonna be happily in your own state of deep flow I work from home so I’m out of luck but I definitely agree with you I definitely agree with you for the most part especially if I’ve got to do hours and hours of some writing task like I’m replying to 300 pieces of their mail or something like that I will go to a coffee shop in part because I don’t want to be distracted by something that might be more fun at the time than plowing through my entire inbox but also just because there’s so much energy and activity going on there I don’t get tired as I go I get more energized as I go exactly exactly I do to such a delicate balance you know in the decibel level and the cafe has to be just right and if it’s iota too loud then you stop being able to focus I agree yeah it’s got to be white noise buzz it can’t be like there’s a kid who keeps yelling and throwing things it’s like it can’t creep into my consciousness it’s gotta remain subconscious otherwise it is distracting you mentioned in the book as well that extroverts tend to attain leadership in the public domain so you mentioned Bill Clinton as well and introverts tend to attain leadership in theoretical and aesthetic fields why is that I mean that must have to do with the advantages of being an introvert at some point yeah okay so first of all I don’t want to overstate that point because you do see introverts you know CEOs of all kinds of things where you might not exactly expect to find them but there they are and same for extra verse I think it’s really just that there’s always so many hours in the day I think it’s nothing more exciting and it explains it than that there’s only so many hours in the day and if you’re the person who’s drawn to going and painting in your studio or or like sitting and thinking about science let’s say you might just get a little more done in that field than somebody who’s equally talented at it but who’s drawn to be spending their time in other places the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi talks about this that there are some teenagers who are really talented and various domains but they don’t have the ability or the interest to sit in a room by themselves for the period of time that’s required to really deepen their craft or their talent and so they may not end up going as far with it do you think Tim Cook is an introverted CEO just rent tangent I do i do you think so yeah cuz he’s an engineer as well see that a lot all over Silicon Valley I think you see introverted CEOs and I think what explains it is that a lot of these people would not be CEOs of something else like these aren’t necessarily people who you know destined to become a leader and it almost didn’t matter what they became a leader of it’s rather people who got really into what they were doing and that thing was technology and because they were really good at it really into it they ended up acquiring all kinds of expertise and networks and so on you know and they end up becoming leaders and often very good ones but it’s a different pathway from a Bill Clinton who I’m sure from the time he was a little kid you just knew who’s gonna grow up and need something right of course yeah you just you see the naturals in there and by the way congratulations on being the one in 500 person who can say mihai Csikszentmihalyi without saying you know it’s really complicated last name I just give up before trying so props to you on that as well that’s really I love him so much this episode is sponsored in part by Dollar Shave Club so for a while now I’ve been talking about the Affordable Dollar Shave Club rages that get delivered to my house every month really good shave I kind of forgot how dull I used to let my other blades get because it’s kind of like toothpaste you 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Anders Ericsson who kind of I think he’d coined the term deliberate practice as well it happens when you’re by yourself much of the time and so if you’re by nature spending a lot of your time alone working on something especially if you have a high level of intelligence or maybe an obsessive personality like some of these guys and girls who get really good at particular industries sports writing and cultural pursuits you tend to get in a lot of deliberate practice which tends to lead to mass read how much quicker yeah exactly it was under Zurich San who told me about that it’s so interesting because there’s been all this talk about deliberate practice and the 10,000 hour rule I think there’s ever since Malcolm Gladwell wrote about it in his book outliers but nobody talks about this aspect of it you know the way andre’s ericsson explains it is if you’re trying to work on your craft and you’re doing it in the context of a group you’re going to end up spending so much time working on things that other people need to focus on that are either too hard for you too easy for you not of interest to you you know just not where you need to be for your practice so the best way to do the practice is either by yourself in drills that kind of thing or working one on one with a coach who’s tailoring everything to exactly where you need to be and that gets lost along the way but it’s true not only actually of people in theoretical fields like a chess player let’s say it’s also true of even elite athletes and team sports they say you know often the best athletes are the ones who have the wherewithal to just sit there by themselves basketball court and drill over and over it we’ve been doing a lot of work at quiet revolution with schools and although our mission is to help schools harness the talents of introverted students we also worry a lot about the extroverts because we think that they’re the ones who by their nature are not going to teach themselves how to do that kind of solitary deep dive you know do this over and over till I get it right kind of work because they’re so drawn to being with other kids and nowadays the educational system isn’t really given kids that practice because so much is being done now in group work but the extroverted kids are starting to miss out interesting i did not realize that and but it does make a lot of sense that we focus and we create work places like this going back to sort of the open office workspace so i did notice in your book we’ve actually got some really good anecdotes about how when wearing groups we often give wrong answers more often and it’s not just social pressure but the peer pressure doesn’t just push us to conform but actually changes our perceptions in our brains leading to the wrong answer so you end up with a lot of folks that are introverted getting separate answers that might be more correct because they are working alone which I thought was fascinating so essentially if we’re managing people and we have some introverted creatives or high reactive as you mentioned we might want to leave those people alone because that’s how they do their best work and sometimes their best work might be better than work done by a group of people working together on the same problem yeah and I’d actually go a step farther and say that you want to do that for the extra roots too if you have a problem that you want to solve or a creative project and you want everybody rolling up their sleeves and doing a deep thing you want to send the extrovert Amy introverts off to do it by themselves because all the research finds that people who brainstorm by themselves will produce more ideas and better ideas than groups of people of brainstorming together and that’s just as true of the extroverts as it is of the introverts so you know it’s easier for the introverts to do the solitary work and the extroverts might resist it at every turn but really everybody should be doing it now what advantages do introverts have over extra time and let’s talk proper parenting proper environment introverts have strengths and advantages can we list some of those and explain some of these because I know that there’s a lot of folks listening that are thinking okay got it got it got it yeah I still want to know why it hasn’t been just one painful thing after another and this has all been worth it tell me I mean as we’re saying there’s this ability to kind of sit still focus go deep and the fruits of that can be incredibly intense so that’s one thing another thing that gets talked about much less often is that there are a lot of introverts in leadership positions and not just the theoretical and aesthetic kind but the conventional kind of leadership let’s say and there’s been a growing body of research showing that introverted leaders often deliver better outcomes and extroverted leaders due to some degree this depends on the situation so Adam grant had him a few times yeah great dude great guests as well yeah so he did this famous study where he looked at leaders and he found that extroverted leaders delivered better outcomes when they were managing people who were less proactive the staff of people who really needed encouragement and they needed kind of rousing an extrovert is better at getting people all jazzed up to go but if you have already a staff who’s proactive it’s the introverted leaders who deliver the better outcomes and this is partly because the introverts are really good at listening and valuing other people’s ideas and encouraging people to actually run with those ideas and take them to the next place and that leads to really great results this spills over socially as well I noticed you state that introverts may have better social skills because they observe and notice more before diving into social groups I am like this now I force myself to make a good first impression so that it seems outgoing in charismatic but then I hang back and observe and get the lay of the land and map the dynamics of the group and I also try to shape the way that the group works that’s learned and we talk about those types of things teach those types of skill sets at our boot camps here in LA and I’m wondering though of course we’re able to stretch our personalities like I’ve done in the past but probably only up to a point and you have an interesting rubber band theory of personality can you talk about that a little bit because it seems like no matter what you do you’re still going to at times snap back into your default mode yeah so the idea is that we all can stretch that we all should stretch by a little my favorite personality psychologists he talks about how we all have these poor personal projects and our lives and these are either the work project or the people we love and look for the sake of those people in those projects we will often step outside our comfort zones and we should do that but you can only stretch only so far that’s my rubber band theory you can stretch you should stretch but at a certain point you’re going to snap you just can’t do it so the key is to be thinking okay is this something where it’s like worth it you know it is this on the service of my core personal project so I mean I’ll just give you an example like I threw my husband in a 50th birthday party a surprise party first 50th birthday a couple years ago and that’s not my natural thing to do to be you spending the years tracking down all his old friends I mean then coordinating them organizing the party presiding over this party but you do that because it’s in the service of in that case someone you loved but the key is that after you do those things you should then do like Brian little calls taking a restorative niche which is saying to yourself okay I just spent a weekend planning a surprise party so the next day I get to you know chill out and go get a massage and sit in a cafe with my laptop by myself so it’s a question of having that kind of balance and I don’t think that people achieve that balance until they really deep down feel emotionally entitled to be they are I really do think that’s the key because if you don’t emotionally feel entitled then you’re just gonna keep on stretching yourself beyond the point of all rationality right at which point do you experience some sort of stress or some sort of cognitive dissonance or something like that I mean what happens if you keep trying to stretch yourself oh my gosh I mean for some people they literally burn out you know they get literally physically ill or they just stop being able or wanting to do the job that they were doing in the first place it’s like that i think the consequences could be pretty extreme sometimes it just means that they end up being where they should be in the first place so as young women who sent me a letter and she told me that she was at a high school where the most prestigious read your cap thing to do is to be the peer leadership counselor you know that was this program you had to apply for it so she said she spent like a whole year trying to figure out how to be more of an extrovert and she was finally chosen for this program twist herself into a pretzel to do what she was supposed to do and then she actually got kicked out of it six months later because she really just she wasn’t the extroverted model that the teachers were looking for for this thing and she was devastated but then after that she realized that what she really wanted to do what she really loved to do in the first place was science she hadn’t actually really wanted to be a peer leadership person and so she started hanging out with her biology teacher after school and she ended up writing her for scientific paper publishing it at 17 she went a scholarship to University she’s now majoring in biomedical engineering and like she didn’t actually need to stretch all that time in her case the stretching so far that she finally snapped was the blessing that helped her figure out where she was supposed to be in the first place so in your work you’ve seen certain differences in the brain that showed introverts tend to be more sensitive to input which makes sense I think a lot of introverts get overwhelmed with him put more easily when there’s things that are noisy in fact I was playing with my friends kids the other day they’re really young they’re four and three or two and a half or something like that and the boy was kicking this game that made noise every time you you hit it it was like Hungry Hungry Hippos to point out type thing and the little girl was sitting there and she goes no it’s too loud and I thought what an interesting critique not stop kicking my toy and it was just all it’s too loud and I thought wow that is exactly what I was thinking but I figure I’m playing with kids it’s going to be loud she also didn’t like that this three year old girl and I realized that oh this is the one that also it tends to be a little bit less rambunctious and it’s probably a little bit too early for me to say what her personality type is but she might have that inborn temperament that makes her a little bit more introverted potentially I guess we’ll see how that plays out over the next couple of decades but I just thought wow when’s the last time you heard a little kids say no it’s too loud and it’s pretty rare right at least in my experience oh well that’s the funny thing I actually think you hear it a lot if you’re listening for it and if you’re giving the kids an environment where they feel like they can say it I mean once you start looking for this stuff you actually do see it all over the place and kids really know because well they kind of have a double consciousness because they are getting from a very young age the message that they’re supposed to be rambunctious and all this stuff but they’re also still kids so they’ll tell you what they really think and feel I definitely think that the input thing could lead to higher levels of perception would you agree with that i mean does being more sensitive to input make us more sensitive to that very same input in terms of being able to think about or process it in some other way that might be advantageous oh yeah absolutely so it’s kind of a double edged sword because Y on the one hand it’s a liability because you kind of reach your overload state faster but on the other hand it does do what you’re saying so for example there’s this one study that was done with children where they gave them one of those puzzles where the job is to discern the difference between two pictures that appear to be really similar and they’re just very subtly different and you find that the kids were more quiet and cautious tend to be better at a puzzle like that and in the lab apparently you can literally see their eyes moving back and forth more frequently comparing the two pictures so it really is this way of interacting with reality like we tend to think that it’s all about do you put a lampshade on your head at parties or not yeah just to be crude about it if you’re an introvert you put lampshade on your head at parties so nobody sees you that but yeah you know it really is about how do you take in your information what information do you notice or not I don’t know what the input thing like even for me at this stage of life I still find myself noticing things that I hadn’t previously been conscious of so my husband and I we travel a lot and he’s an extrovert and when we go to airports but always happens is that he totally speeds up and I slow down and get kind of molasses like and we can always alert us that difference we hadn’t really thought about it until it occurred to us at some point it’s kind of classic like I’m in an airport and I’m just overwhelmed by all the stimuli so it makes me slow and he gets hyped up from it right he’s energized by it yeah once you start paying attention to this stuff its or shows up in all kinds of interesting ways very interesting yeah and this sort of touches upon writing your book in a café where we need to find environments with the right level of stimulation to operate at our best whether or not we’re introverted or extroverted we have to find the right kind of environment to be energized be able to do what we are doing right now I’m in a studio in my house with my show notes a microphone some coffee that tastes really really bad and my phone facing upside down so I don’t get distracted but on some days I wish that I had a big window that was looking out onto a Manhattan street or something like that because it would be a little bit more energizing my mood definitely fluctuates but I’d say my default is I just don’t want any distraction whatsoever and I have a recording light outside here that people in my household know that if they walk in while that’s on they’re going to get hung by their ankles out of the second floor window because I can’t handle it right I can only do one thing well at a time and I don’t want that extra stimulation on other times I have to get that stimulation somehow even though I’m trying to have a conversation because my brain needs it and I think that that might have more to do with amba verte type tendencies that you mentioned later on in the book as well but I wanted to highlight the input thing because I know a lot of folks say well there’s a lot of inhibitions very introverted it’s not inhibition it’s more sensitivity right and there’s a distinction there that I think is important yeah okay wait so two things one is the thing about sometimes you really want lots of stimulation and sometimes you don’t at all I don’t know that I would say that that comes from being an ambivert I don’t think it’s not necessarily because it’s really true of everybody introvert extrovert that you’re craving for your tolerance of stimulation really varies throughout the day and I think one of the best things about becoming mindful about this stuff is you get to know yourself better and you can kind of try to choose your environment as best you can you know so that you’re in your sweet spot at any given moment and then the thing about inhibition at bottom this is more about sensitivity and how are you reacting to stimulation what ends up happening is there’s this whole other layer or component of shyness and shyness is much more about the fear of social judgment and you feel excessively self conscious when you’re in situation do you tend if you’re seeing somebody with a neutral expression on their face do you tend to attribute disapproval to that person in practice there’s like an overlap between introversion and China’s so some introverted people are also shy and then some or not and then you have extrovert swear shy so it’s kind of complex right it’s not cut and dry it’s not if you do this you’re introverted and if you do this you’re extroverted yeah and all of this you know it’s such a mish mosh so like an introverted tech person what they will tend to be very different from an introverted actor or an introverted lawyer it’s not like this explains everything but at the same time explains a whole heck of a lot back to the show in just a minute but before that here’s a fantastic testimonial from a recent AOC grad you won’t hear it from me but you’ll hear direct from him exactly how impactful this training can be ok my name is Dave Fitzgerald I live in Central Florida Cocoa Beach area and I am an airline pilot and I took the program because I had tried other seminars in the past and I had tried to read books on my own to work on my own self development and nothing seemed to really be working I took the program to try to make myself jump to the next level and bring my life from where it was to where I really saw myself being where I wanted it to be everybody was really genuine on the podcast and they were very concerned with each individual’s self development in reaching their goals in life and it just seemed like the obvious choice to give aoc a shot and see how it went the concern that the instructors had for me and their ability to actually understand me and give me the time to assimilate the information but also push me to make changes and to take action so that I could see that what they were saying was in fact accurate and true and things I needed to incorporate in my own life I enjoyed the program quite a lot and we had really bonded with each other and from that point forward we’ve been friends since then but the entire program was great going out with the guys was great interacting with all of the people we met while we were there was just excellent and super fun really and what I got out of the boot camp was the ability to push myself that was something I wouldn’t have done or couldn’t do on my own I didn’t even know what I didn’t know if that makes sense I needed to basically have somebody there to tell me to try something and then go try it and what it effectively did was shattered many limitations that I had that I didn’t even know that I had and it just made me a much more social person a much more outgoing person a much more friendly and accepting person it just did a lot of the things I was looking for it just automatically sort of built them into me by taking action and actually doing it I most definitely use the skills I learned in the boot camp every single day almost all day every day I think it takes a pretty certain type of person it requires somebody who is willing to change if somebody is very stuck in their ways and they don’t want to change in any way then it’s going to be difficult to actually achieve what you want in life but if you are the kind of person that knows that in order to make changes you have to try new things then you’re perfect for this program you should absolutely do it fantastic is it time for a big change in your life give us a call here in the office or email me Jordan at the art of charm calm and we’ll talk about getting you to the next level thanks for listening and supporting the art of charm for a list of all the amazing sponsors and discount codes visit the art of charm calm / advertiser’s now back to the show and it’s very tempting to paint ourselves one way or another because in America today we don’t make a whole lot of room for different personality styles and we see ourselves largely as a nation of extroverts which may put people at a significant disadvantage our lives are shaped as profoundly by personality as by gender or race and yet not that many people are talking about it because well one is considered good one is considered maybe not as good especially for different types of jobs and things like that this is important for people who know already maybe that they’re extroverts because if you’re not an introvert yourself you are probably the parent of one you’re managing some you’re married to one you’re dating one I mean this isn’t something you can escape just because it doesn’t affect you yeah no that’s absolutely true it says one out of every two or three people is introverted and it’s funny that you mentioned the workplace I’ve it because I actually started thinking about this gazillion years ago when I was a core lawyer like you I was always really interested in gender issues and thinking about how they shaped all the different lawyers experiences but then I started realizing like I used to sit around boardroom tables watching a negotiation and I was thinking you know what gender is not explaining everything that’s going on here there’s like this whole other thing that’s happening have some people being more out there and some being more interior and that’s what’s really shaping everything I don’t mean gender isn’t but this huge other thing and no one’s talking about it and there’s no language for talking about it so that’s what made me think to write the book in the first place and then years later now to start choir evolution where we’re going in and working with companies to help them harness the talents of the introverted part of their workforce because I think there’s so much being left on the table we did a study recently through quiet revolution and we found that the majority of people believe that their companies are not properly harnessing the talents and the value of the introverted half of their population so that’s ridiculous really yeah it’s such a shame and you note in your work that one out of every two or three people you know are introverts and if those numbers are surprising to you if you’re listening to this you think half the country almost half the country this is ridiculous think about this how many introverts are pretending to be extrovert so that you don’t even know who’s which right because I’m one of those people most people would never go well Jordan harbhajan he’s one quiet guy that talk show host that puts out for hours of content every week you know he’s definitely an introvert but if you go by the tests and you look at the rest of my life my fiancé’s parents when they met me they’re like what do you do again because I go to their house for dinner and we go there are several times a week they live really close I just I don’t talk much I’m reading I’m looking at some researching I might be chatting with people online you know my team here at art of charm Jason or something or watching something but very rarely am i showing up to the family event running the thing like Tom Jones right i mean i’m quiet except when I need to do this particular aspect of the job which don’t get me wrong I love it’s my favorite part however you know people like this most likely that are introverts but they’re the one going up and giving the talk for the morning or they’re your manager or there’s somebody that you manage we’re undercover right it’s like aliens among us yes absolutely i mean i can tell you because of what I talk about all the introverts who are out there doing what you just described they all tell me about it and there are so many of them unofficial poll it just seems to me that most people in the media are introverts I don’t need mrs.really like the cable talk show host people but most print reporters for sure most radio reporters i would say they’re exactly the way you describe yourself it’s really common and it’s just people pass and so we don’t realize it because we’re looking at everything through the extrovert ideal which is that being quiet is a second class trade you don’t want to do that you want to be somebody who can be outgoing and on the other hand introverts are often painting themselves with the other side of the brush which is oh well since I’m not an extravert I’m an introvert so now I have a medical excuse for being quiet not networking and not developing relationships and there’s a lot of confusion as to what being introverted actually means I note this when I teach a lot of networking or teach art of charm programs here in LA or elsewhere it tends to be well you know I’m an introvert so I can’t do the networking thing and I don’t believe that for a second we look at the extrovert ideal and then we as introverts we like to hide behind the other side of that same coin which is basically saying look I can’t do this not I don’t like to or not I’m more comfortable elsewhere but I can’t do it because i took a myers briggs in high school and that they said I can so we’re done working on that skill set now no I know and that is really the problem with any kind of labeling and so it’s something I always try to be really careful about because I think to the extent one is going to label oneself an introvert you’ve got to do it in an empowering way and not the other way around like for example with networking I really do believe this that if you’re somebody who’s introverted and you’re going to a networking event it’s probably not the right goal for you to be like okay I’m the one who’s gonna work the room but you can be the one who’s gonna go and look for a few kindred spirits right connect with those people and then really nurture those connections and an in depth way you know I could tell it my whole life has been that way where I don’t think I have the widest network around but I have a really deep one of people who I love and I feel like every good thing that’s happened to me from meeting my literary agent meeting my husband like that it’s all come from this incredibly deep network so I did this really great interview with Arianna Huffington and her daughter Isabella Arianna she says she’s a bit of an introvert but she’s obviously much more out there and her daughter isabella is truly introverted and an artist and Isabella told me that she’s developed this kind of rule of thumb over time which is that when she has a social event that she’s feeling like she doesn’t really want to go to she asks herself am I staying home out of fear or am I staying home just because I really honest to goodness would rather be painting in my studio right now and if the answer is that she just honest to goodness wants to do that then it’s ok but if she’s doing it out of fear then she gives herself a push to go perfect I think that’s very important you because you have to be able to sit down and of course that’s a very introverted thing to do let me examine my emotional state and figure out whether i’m doing this because of fear or whether I’m doing it because I really want to do something and I find myself doing that a lot that does seem like a very perceptive intuitive or whatever label we want to throw on it speaking of labeling that seems like a very introverted thing to do which is look at your own motivations and examine those and then make a decision after that instead of just going for whatever yeah now is it possible though that those of us that have been told all your in your head too much your cerebral you’re quiet is it possible that we would enjoy more professional success by shoring up what might for some folks might be weak social skills because i’m not saying introverts have weak social skills i am saying that oftentimes they allow their social skills to get weak or be undeveloped because of what i mentioned earlier which is this sort of built in medical excuse for not putting themselves in uncomfortable situations I just want to highlight this because I don’t want people to think well I have this so I get a pass I think it is important to do what your friend does which is say what reason am I doing this be very honest with yourself and give yourself a push where necessary absolutely I mean one of the things that we try to do when we go in and we work with people in companies our approach is you should be figuring out don’t accept what you probably are hearing if you’re hearing it from someone I wasn’t even this a lot of thought you’ll often be told be more like your colleague down the hall who’s more of an extra just like be like that and that’s really not the answer the answer is much more can you figure out how to draw on your own natural strengths use what comes naturally you and do that well and then at the same time you want to combine that with every so often you just have to push yourself outside of your comfort zone and great your teeth through it the real key is is how can you do it as naturally as possible and I think them sign a role model is so huge you know so somebody who has a temperament like yours has a style like yours is doing the thing you want to be doing and they’re doing it well you can channel that person during the moments that feel difficult for you can be really powerful I think that’s very wise I mean looking at somebody who we can emulate and again to be clear introversion is not something where you have weak social skills introverts might have strong social skills enjoy parties business meetings but you know after an hour and a half two hours I want to be home in my pajamas it doesn’t mean antisocial it doesn’t mean unable to socialize and I think the confusion often comes from being shy versus introverted I think a lot of people can flate the two but why do they do that why do people conflate shyness versus introverted what’s going on here because I think that results in a lot of annoying discomfort in really awkward situations or the labeling that you mentioned earlier the reason you tend to get confused is because shyness and introversion can lead to the same result even though they might be coming from completely different motivations so if you have for example of somebody being quiet in a meeting maybe they’re being quiet because they feel shy and unsure of themselves and maybe it’s because they’re feeling introverted meaning sort of over stimulated and by the time we think of the thing they want to say the conversations out already moved ahead of them but it kind of looks the same and so most people don’t really think beyond that but having said that we really think of our work with quiet revolution as being about shyness as much as it is about introversion because fifty percent of people will tell you that they feel shy at least for some significant portion of the time and that’s real and shyness 2 tends to be associated with all kinds of / social qualities like being a loyal and caring friend in great conscientious and sometimes associated with forms of aesthetic sensitivity what I really want to say is anytime we find ourselves only privilege in the mo that’s like take the bull by its horns and be dominant and be out there you’re probably leaving a lot of emotional and aesthetic value and humanity on the table well I dig that I agree at least as much as I can based on having read your book and but an introvert and otherwise have no expertise on the subject this book is really interesting I want to give you some problems before we wrap here your work is really interesting I mean you you’ve broken down how sensitive people have thinner boundary is more sensitive to taste light and smell how we i should say are often better negotiators have closer social groups because they listened with and they talk they think before they speak there’s a lot of expression and in writing rather than conversation which tends to be more thought well thought out at least in my opinion and there’s just a whole lot here for the introvert or someone who suspects they might be or for somebody who’s close to an introvert may be married one raising one I do have a question though a couple final questions which is how can one’s culture influenced our personalities in terms of introversion and extraversion because I noticed America like we said before nation of introverts but i’ve also been to places in Asia and even Scandinavia Finland for example fins are notoriously introverted as well does our culture influenced this in to what extent yeah it influences it hugely so you know in the book I have a whole chapter where I talk about Asia and particularly Confucian built societies where the FS really is that everything is about group harmony that’s the true value and if you want to have group harmony you don’t want to have any one person who’s drawing too much attention to themselves because that’s disruptive to the group in these cultures it’s much more there’s an aphorism the wind howls but the mountain remains still so strength is seen as the person who has the ability to not be talking too much and can exercise restraint it’s completely the opposite like the squeaky wheel gets the grease so you know you do end up getting a lot of misunderstandings we have for example global business and you have people from a confucian belt society sitting a meeting with people from New York society you’ll have misunderstandings where let’s say people from it’s Japan are maybe not agreeing with an idea that’s been put forth in a meeting would have a very different way of expressing that in certain cases in Japan II wouldn’t want to express your disagreement to directly because that would be disruptive and rude and inappropriate so you can see how that leads to all kinds of misunderstandings sure well that leads to my next question very conveniently which is is our cultural preference here in the States or the West i should say for extraversion is that the natural order of things or is that socially determined it sounds like it’s socially determined and if you agree with that then let me ask you this can introverts be leaders well it seems like from an evolutionary perspective introversion must have survived as a personality trait for a reason what’s the reason this is actually one of the first things that I wanted to look at that’s exactly the question I asked when i first started researching the book the reason is i mean it actually really interesting you see introversion and extraversion in almost every single species of the animal kingdom all the way down to fruit flies you know like there are some fruit flies that biologists call sitters because they tend to kind of sit still or stay in place and then there are others who are rovers because they go out and they’re more in bold and exploratory so really all the way through you see this and it’s basically just because these are completely different survival strategies and in some cases when let’s say food is scarce it pays to be more of a quote extrovert because you’re exploring and you’re going to get the far flung food but then in other cases for example when there are lots of predators around you do much better if you have a more circumspect strategy staying behind your rock let’s say in the pond when you think about it and you start looking at human behavior from that lens it explains everything and you start realizing you can’t even imagine an organization that doesn’t have both types of people in it because like you really need the people who are like let’s do this and there really worried too much about the Predators who are out there because they’re just going to go and advance their thing and then you knew the people who are like wait a minute you know there might be around that corner some bigger fish it’s gonna eat us and so let’s think about this really deeply before we move ahead how could you do anything really without those different approaches well thank you so much Susan Cain and thank you for telling us that it’s okay to be quiet I really appreciate you and your work and your time here today thank you so much for having me on the show I really enjoyed it I enjoyed that one Susan Cain quiet the power of introverts in a world that can’t stop talking you can find her at quiet Rev calm for quiet revolution quiet revolution her company helps companies and schools to harness the talents of the introverted half of the workforce which is very important as we now all see and if you enjoyed this one don’t forget to thank Susan on Twitter will have that linked in the show notes as well as all the books and other resources mentioned on the show remember you can tap the album art in most mobile podcast players to see 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